Hillary Clinton: An Ongoing Vindication

(Disclaimer: I am no dead-ender.  In fact, I eat PUMAs for breakfast.  I have every intention of getting Barack Obama elected to the White House.  But in this particular diary, I intend to set the record straight on Hillary Clinton (and others) on two fronts.  If no facts, common sense, or reasonable arguments could ever vindicate this woman in your mind, please save yourself some grief and stop reading.  Otherwise, please continue; just prepare to reopen some old wounds.)  

Vindication #1:  "She will say or do anything to get elected. . ."

As Clinton supporter, there came a point late last year--as I was listening to Barack Obama at the Jefferson-Jackson dinner speech--when I knew he had found his "moment".   It was the moment he pledged to bring the country together in a new majority, leveling a harsh indictment not only of the Bush brand of politics, but of the Clinton brand as well:  "Triangulating and poll-driven positions ... just won't do."

I grimaced, at the time, at Obama's embrace of this oft-cited critique used for years to hammer away at the Clinton record.  'Clintonian' centrism was something I never had a problem with (vis-a-vis welfare reform and middle class tax cuts): so why was triangulation such a leper?  

According to Wikipedia, in a nutshell:

Triangulation is the name given to the act of a political candidate presenting his or her ideology as being "above" and "between" the "left" and "right" sides of a traditional democratic "political spectrum". It involves adopting for oneself some of the ideas of one's political opponent (or apparent opponent). The logic behind it is that it both takes credit for the opponent's ideas, and insulates the triangulator from attacks on that particular issue. Opponents of triangulation, who believe in a fundamental "left" and "right", consider the dynamic a deviation from its "reality" and dismiss those that strive for it as whimsical.

Despite the unfortunate connotations ascribed to the word, triangulation--as described above--is a brilliant political strategy.  Though he used the label to great effect against Hillary Clinton in the primary, Barack Obama has emerged in the general election as a political triangulator himself.  For those who treat this as a smear, again, I suggest you disabuse yourself of the notion that centrism and triangulation were anything but expected of a successful politician.  Obama has never believed in a fundamental "left" and "right":  I assure you, furthermore, that his recent incorporation of oil drilling into a comprehensive energy plan (which some call a reversal) is both a triangulation and a poll-driven position.  And I applaud him for it.  The hard-hitting truth is that Obama is willing to say or do what it takes to win (on the other side, unfortunately, it looks as if McCain is too).  In retrospect, Obama's brand of politics was and is vastly more "Clintonian" than ever expected in the primary.  So count this one as a vindication for Bill, too.

Vindication #2:  Hillary's Iraq War Vote

I and many others have long argued that hindsight is 20/20.  The Bush Administration's manipulation of the facts and outright deceit of the American public in the run-up to the war are still being unraveled to this day.  

But let's be clear:  Following September 11 and prior to the Iraq invasion, amidst a positive Bush approval rating and substantial public trust in the 'War on Terror', there was little reason, if none at all, to believe the Administration would lie to us.  Not only did the public trust the president, but so did the members of Congress who received the classified briefings that spotlighted (what turned out to be) false intelligence.  Many of the respectable Democrats who voted for the resolution--Sens. Dodd, Biden, and Clinton included--believed they were authorizing the President to use the Armed Forces "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate" (verbatim from the Iraq Resolution).

It was the Bush Administration that brainwashed Congress and the public into believing Saddam was an imminent threat.  It was Bush who proclaimed, long after the passage of the Iraq Resolution, that war would be a last resort.  And as Ron Suskind revealed today, it was Bush who withheld from Congress and the public the unequivocal fact he gleaned that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.

Let that last sentence, that last truly impeachable revelation, soak in.  It tells us that it was Bush who subverted his own resolution, by pulling the trigger in March 2003 after having received (and hid from us) a crucial bit of information that quite clearly made the War neither necessary nor appropriate.  Senator Clinton--as well as Biden, Dodd, and even John McCain, for that matter--are not responsible for starting the Iraq War.  Bush is.

(John McCain is responsible and cannot be vindicated, however, for his reckless stance on continuing the war, and his confusion over Shia and Sunni, and his confusion over Al Qaeda in Iran, and his parroting of false Bush propaganda linking Saddam and 9/11 long after it was debunked, as well as his linking of the 2001 anthrax attacks to Saddam Hussein (propaganda that even Bush didn't concoct).


Vindications of Hillary Clinton #3, 4, and 5:  Allow history to fill in the blanks.



Display:


Sorry on the Iraq war (2.00 / 9)

23 Senators voted nay.  Even the execrable Maureen Dowd saw right through Powell's little dog-and-pony-show.  The AUMF was a failure of moral courage and reason in the face of fear-mongering.  Nobody was "brainwashed" by Dubya.  


by JJE on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 09:30:52 PM EST

Re: Sorry on the Iraq war (2.00 / 2)

Truth be told, I myself was skeptical of the WMD claims in late '02 and of course wish that Hillary hadn't voted with the majority.  I of course wish the majority had the courage to challenge the President, as those 21 Democrats did, plus Jeffords and Chafee.  

But the deceit and misleading tactics of the Bush Administration did in essence amount to brainwashing: the Ayes truly believed our national security interests were at stake, and that they at least ought to delegate the decision to the President, the man best positioned to decide whether to attack.  The extent to which the Aye votes themselves are responsible for war is very limited.

Since the Gulf of Tonkin and War Powers Act, and long prior, delegation of foreign policy responsibility to the President by the Congress has been a mainstay.  Is it an abrogation of constitutional responsibility?  Many scholars argue yes, and I tend to be in that camp.  I would have voted no on the Iraq Resolution.  But even if I had voted yes, I would not have pulled the trigger on the war.


by MMR2 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 09:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough (2.00 / 1)

I still wouldn't call it brainwashing though.  Perhaps a con game that some saw through and some didn't.  I'm sure Clinton's vote was in good faith, but it was fairly clear that the administration was going to war if the AUMF passed (and perhaps even if it didn't).


by JJE on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 09:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oops srry for double post (none / 0)


by JJE on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 10:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fair enough (2.00 / 2)

That's the scary part.  I am tempted to believe that even if the Res. failed, Bush might have taken executive privilege to a whole new extreme.


by MMR2 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 10:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

even if the Res. failed (1.66 / 3)

Maybe president Cheney would have violated the law anyway. But that could be said of every common criminal as well. We don't legalize their nefarious activities simply because they'll break the law anyway.


by Glaurung on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 10:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough (none / 0)

I still wouldn't call it brainwashing though.  Perhaps a con game that some saw through and some didn't.  I'm sure Clinton's vote was in good faith, but it was fairly clear that the administration was going to war if the AUMF passed (and perhaps even if it didn't).


by JJE on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 10:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Brainwashing... (2.00 / 3)

I would actually be less angry with the Democrats in Congress that caved to this needless war (including Hillary) if I believed, for a minute, that they were duped or brainwashed or just too stupid to realize what the rest of us could see very plainly.

The problem with the Iraq War Resolutio wasn't that Iraq really had no WMDs.  I assumed they did, and I still opposed the war.  The problem wit hgoing to war with Iraq is that it was UNNECESSARY.  Nothing had changed with regards to Iraq to make it more dangerous in fourth quarter '02 than it was in fourth quarter '00.  The only thing that had intervened between those two dates was that Osama Bin Laden had launched an attack against the U.S. using 21 mostly Saudi middle-class terrorists armed with box cutters.  It took no special intelligence gathering abilities to know that Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were not the same person.  It was clear that the war was going to take place because Bush just REALLY REALLY wanted it, and because some Democrats in Congress were too spineless to say no.

Thank you, MMR2, for providing this opportunity to remind us why we are so fortunate to have Barack Obama as our nominee and not somebody either too spineless, opportunistic, or just plain gullible to lead us at the moment when we needed leadership the most.  We really dodged the bullet when we got Obama as our nominee.  Too bad we have to argue this amongst ourselves now, though, when the rest of the world has moved on to McCain (pro-Iraq-war) versus Obama (pro-timetable).  I thought by now we might all be on board the same train, the one that says that McCain's decision to vote for the 2002 AUMF was a disaster.  For many Americans, it is the best thing about Obama.


by Dumbo on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 11:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brainwashing... (none / 0)

I agree with you: the war was totally unnecessary.  But go back to the Resolution itself and you'll see what the Ayes actually voted to do: to authorize the President to use force as he deemed "necessary and appropriate."

Again, in hindsight, George Bush is the last person Congress should have given a blank check to.  That said, however, granting the President the "power of the sword" did not deviate from the long-held mindset of the legislative and judicial branches that the President is the eyes and ears of the nation.  Should Congress have had a much tighter leash on the President, and on any President, when it comes to foreign policy?  Absolutely.  But they trusted his word.  Imminent Threat.  Last Resort.  Imminent Threat.  Last Resort.  There was nothing inconsistent with voting Aye and still believing that war would be a last resort.

But you are acting as if the Aye votes bore some responsibility in pulling the trigger for war.  They didn't.  

But ignore everything I just wrote for a second, and remember that you have no idea what Barack Obama would have done had he been in the Senate.  NONE.  In fact, right now, think of 3 times when Obama has notably been in the minority on an important Senate vote.  You can't, can you?  There is no telling whether Obama would have been in the AUMF majority or minority; his Illinois speech proves nothing.  It is you who must truly be gullible if you lump all of Obama's primary opponents voting for the war (Dodd, Biden, Clinton) into the category of "spineless, opportunistic, or just plain gullible . . . when we needed leadership the most."  OF COURSE Obama isn't opportunistic.  OF COURSE Obama has taken risky, courageous stands once he was in the Senate.


by MMR2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:08:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Quit defending John McCain and this war. (2.00 / 2)

Because that's the net effect of what you are doing here.  We have a fine candidate who had the plain commonsense to know we did not need to start a superfluous war against somebody who was not our enemy while we still had the unfinished business of Afghanistan on our plate.  A hell of a lot of Americans knew that, too, including me.  And the good Democrats in Congress that stood up to George W. Bush.

But John McCain (and I suppose Hillary) did not exercise proper judgment, the responsibility the Constitution lays on them, to think of how much trouble we would be getting into by starting an unnecessary war in the midst of a necessary one.

John McCain deseserves to be fully condemned or that vote, and to have it hung around his neck like a three trillion dollar albatross.  And people like you, trying to defend something Hillary deep down probably knew she shouldn't have done, are obscuring one of the most fundamental differences between the Democrats and the Republicans in this campaign -- the proper, sound, sane, use of foreign policy for matters that bear on our national security, not on the vainglory of opportunists like Bush and McCain.  

John McCain should have known this was a needless war, regardless of whether there were WMDs, for the simple fact that Iraq was unconnected to 9/11 or Osama Bin Laden.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Quit defending John McCain and this war. (2.00 / 1)

Oil drilling and ANWAR are a similar type of issue.

Obama believes them to be wrong.

But now that he has something to lose he too is pragmatic.

Obama had NOTHING to lose voting against the war.

Hillary knew she was going to be a primary frontrunner if the Iraq war went well as for Bush Sr and Cheney or if it went poorly as for Bush Jr and Cheney.

Obama knew that he would be a candidate ONLY if he opposed the war and fortune smiled on him.

Neither one knew how it was going to turn out.

Almost all the people standing up saying I told you so for Iraq II were wrong in Iraq I and vice versa.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:42:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Quit defending John McCain and this war. (2.00 / 4)

Obama had NOTHING to lose voting against the war.

Right. Opposing the Iraq War in the spring of 2003 was no risk position. Especially for a Senate candidate.

Why don't you go watch Shut Up and Sing, or do a little research into the death threats people like Robert Byrd got, or watch the commercials from Max Cleland's Senate race, then come back and repeat that particular bit of stupidity.

Hillary knew she was going to be a primary frontrunner if the Iraq warwent well

So you agree with me that her vote for this war that is still going on and not going well was pure political calculus.

Blind squirrel, et cetera.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If Dtaylor really believes (2.00 / 2)

that that was Hillary's position, then I don't understand how he can be so bitter about her losing.  I mean, after all, in this scenario, it was just a gamble, right?  One candidate (Obama) stuck his finger in the air and figured he would profit more by being against the war, and Hillary stuck hers in the air and figured it would profit her more to be for the war.  And, what do you know, one thing leads to another, and the war turns out to be a disaster, yadda yadda yadda...  But for fickle Lady Luck, things might have been totally different!

But how can anybody with a cynical position like that really care whether Obama or Hillary wins?  "My candidate should have won because everybody's a cynical, opportunistic tool, just like my candidate."  Not a very appealing political philosophy.  I can't imagine donating money or working hard for a candidate who wants to embody such a low ideal.

I wonder if the other post-Hillary defenders have the same low opinion of her that dtaylor does.

In the meantime, I am glad that we Democrats have Barack Obama representing us.  He was lucky.  He was against the war, and it turned out, he was right, the war WAS dumb.  And bloody.  And long.  and expensive.  And Osama Bin Laden is still cutting tapes to boast about how he got away with 9/11.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:08:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (2.00 / 1)

Dumbo

Hillary and Bill are smarter than Obama and company.  
Ultimately thats where my loyalty comes from.

I wouldn't get passionate for Gore, Edwards, or any other Democrat against Obama because I see no indication that any other Democratic team would consistently outperform Obama in the way that the Clintons would.

I know the fact that Obama is smart may confuse many of you but he isn't in the same level of political smart that the Clintons are.

The Clinton Machine is to politics what Warren Buffet is to money.  Sure there are other smart guys you may want to pick stocks for you but if you turned down Warren you lost money.

Likewise the Clinton Machine (and it is a machine as it depends on the people outside of the Clintons as much as the Clintons themselves) gets results that the Obama team will be unable to achieve.

I am honestly offended that so many people in our party let the war vote where Hillary had real risk and Obama did not as a fair measure of ability.

Its not often your opponents honestly show you their cards try to keep that in mind when you respond...


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (2.00 / 4)

Hillary and Bill are smarter than Obama and company.  
The Clinton Machine is to politics what Warren Buffet is to money.
Likewise the Clinton Machine (and it is a machine as it depends on the people outside of the Clintons as much as the Clintons themselves) gets results that the Obama team will be unable to achieve.

Have you been in a coma for the last four months? You do know the "Clinton machine" lost.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:38:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (2.00 / 1)

Do you equate winning an election with ability to govern?

George Bush Jr won 2 elections.

Do you believe he is a greater politician than Carter?  Gore?  Kerry?  

Do you believe that at best Obama could equal his 2 victories?

Or do you believe that Obama could actually be better at politics than Bush?

I will say what most of you know deep down to be the truth.

The Clintons are the Warren Buffets of politics.

Losing Hillary in the Primary was a very foolish decision for our party and it will hurt us all over the next 4 years.  We will be lucky if it doesn't permanently split the party.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (none / 0)

I'm not worried at all.  With good Democrats like you will ensure that the Party stays together as our Party has always been larger than any one individual or leader.  What you call a foolish decision is also known as the primary process where voters chose our nominee.  Your line comes dangerously close to a John McCain talking point.  Saying you're not a deadender and then promoting the lines of the deadenders, kinda makes you a deadender.  


by niksder on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 08:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (1.00 / 1)

Okay, let's talk about the awesome, unbeatable Clinton machine in office.

Bill Clinton's greatest goal as president: Health care. Fail.
Losing both houses of Congress. The Gingrich Era.
Getting impeached
Giving George W. Bush the Presidency.

Let's talk about Hillary's term in the Senate.
Biggest acheivement: Renaming post offices.
Most important Senate vote: Rubber stamping Dumbya's war.
Biggest fight against Republicans.....??????????

Kind of a sad record for a "fighter" who "knows how to win", isn't it?


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 11:19:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (none / 0)

you work for the GOP don't you


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 06:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (none / 0)

Yeah. that's why I'm trolling a partisan blog trashing the Democratic nominee and arguing that the invasion of Iraq was a good thing.

I like your troll-rating and your non-response to the facts I laid out about the oh-so-effective "Clinton political machine".

Stupid doesn't even begin to describe you.


by BlueinColorado on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 10:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (none / 0)

If you view Health care as his greatest attempt and ignore totally balancing the budget ....

You totally ignored balancing the budget....

You totally ignored balancing the budget....

You totally ignored balancing the budget....

You totally ignored balancing the budget....

You totally ignored balancing the budget....

Almost like you think thats its easy.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 01:59:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Dtaylor really believes (1.00 / 1)

That's true. It cannot be denied that Bill Clinton balanced the budget, and that was a significant achievement.

He also got a blowjob.

Which had a more profound impact on the history of this country?


by BlueinColorado on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 09:10:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a fairy tale. (none / 0)

Or should I say load of crap?

He was for the fucking war in July of '04.

"I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports.  What would I have done?  I don't know," in terms of how you would have voted on the war.  And then this:  "There's not much of a difference between my position on Iraq and George Bush's position at this stage."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21738432/pag e/2/

And here in Chicago in his district there was no danger for him to speak out against the war. Hell, nobody even knew when he gave his "famous" speech because the star at that rally was Jesse Jackson. That is who made the news that day in Chicago for speaking out against the war.


by LatinoVoter on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a fairy tale. (none / 0)

He wasn't running in his district. he was running statewide. You do know what the "Senate" is don't you?


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 11:07:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit (2.00 / 5)

Its very simple.

They looked around...stuck a finger to the wind and decided that if they wanted to win election they needed to vote yes. In real politick that makes perfect sense.

The problem is that another way of looking at is they decided that a few thousand soldiers dying for the sake of their glorious political careers was a fair trade.

No one making that choice deserves to be dog catcher, let alone President. Sorry.


by ElitistJohn on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 11:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dogcatcher is fine. (2.00 / 4)

I think the people who voted for the 2002 AUMF shouldn't be disqualified for dogcatcher.  But they should have to have VERY GOOD EXPLANATIONS for that vote if they want to have any further involvement in any matters of foreign policy.  

Kudos, John.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:14:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good explanation? (none / 0)

A good explanation for her vote? Clinton gave that before her 2002 AUMF vote.

You and John should both read it for the first time here:

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_ 101002.html

Senator Clinton back then clearly made her case that her vote was to strengthen Bush's hand at the United Nations in the then effort to force Saddam into full and open U.N. inspections of his weaponry.

She states emphatically that while she realizes her vote would give Bush the unilateral authorization to go to war against Iraq, she counsels and repeats numerous times, that should be the absolute last resort of the President.

Of course, Bush, who doesn't read anything more complicated than a few 3X5 index cards got the message... Hey, go for it, the majority voted, YES.  


by RickWn on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have read it, and debated it (2.00 / 4)

multiple times on this and other blogs, with much cutting and pasting.  I also watched it live on Cspan2, and was furious at the time, not just at her, but at a few other Democrats as well that voted for it.

Let me give you an anecdote by Rachel Maddow that I wish to hell I could get a transcript of.  After one of the debates, the one where Hillary said that (paraphrasing, forgive me) she could not foresee that Bush would use her vote the way he did, Rachel Maddow said afterward that Hillary's answer was one of the most ridiculous things she has heard.  She said that she remembered well the night of the vote, hearing Hillary's vote, and knowing, as all Americans did, what it meant -- that we were going to war with Iraq.  And like many of us with some sense, Rachel Maddow knew what a disaster this was going to be for us all.  She said she got into her truck and just drove around, that night, crying to herself, for her country, sad that her own senator had voted that way.

A lot of us were paying more attention to this back then than you were because we were horrified not just by what Bush was doing, but what the Congress was failing to hold Bush to any standard at all.  

They started a war for no reason other than George Bush Jr. wanted it.  John McCain and Hillary Clinton can't avoid their share of the blame, because they voted for it, and McCain should suffer for it this fall.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:27:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have read it, and debated it (2.00 / 1)

At the time of that vote, I'd venture to say we were all still somewhat in shock over the events of 9/11 that occurred only 13 months before.

D, I don't doubt for a minute the sincerity of your trepidations, same one's I had, or your similar gasp of desperation when this vote went forward and was approved.

But I always wince a bit when Hillary is held up singularly, somehow, for getting us into this war. Her trepidations were just as obvious as ours, but unlike you, me and Barack, she actually had to cast a vote.


by RickWn on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:42:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have read it, and debated it (2.00 / 1)

Thank you, RickWn, for this level-headed response.  

Given the text and purported substance of the Iraq Resolution at the time, not to mention the political and media environment, there was sufficient gray area to cover up any black and white dividing line between "right" and "wrong".  Not you nor I, nor Dumbo, nor Barack Obama--or Rachel Maddow, for that matter--can likely imagine being in the shoes of a Senator at the time.  

The anger is misplaced when directed at the majority of Senators and majority of Americans who fell into Bush's trap.  Again, the Resolution only authorized force, instead of ordering it, mandating it, or recommending it.  Second, that vote had literally zero to do with subsequent developments in Iraq.  (The authorization might have failed, and Iraq still invaded by Bush.  The authorization might have passed, Iraq then invaded, only to quickly prosper due to well-conceived entry and exit plans.)


by MMR2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 04:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit (1.66 / 3)

Please.  The idea that the Senators voting Aye could have predicted a) that Bush would withhold crucial intelligence from the public after the Resolution, b) that Bush would have bungled going into Iraq, c) that Bush would have bungled getting out of Iraq, and d) precise numbers of troop deaths over a subsequent 5+ year occupation     is nothing short of ludicrous.


by MMR2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Molly Ivins saw it (2.00 / 5)

Nov. 19, 2002: "The greatest risk for us in invading Iraq is probably not war itself, so much as: What happens after we win? ... There is a batty degree of triumphalism loose in this country right now."

Jan. 16, 2003: "I assume we can defeat Hussein without great cost to our side (God forgive me if that is hubris). The problem is what happens after we win. The country is 20 percent Kurd, 20 percent Sunni and 60 percent Shiite. Can you say, `Horrible three-way civil war?' "

I saw it. Bob Graham saw it. Robert Byrd saw it. Barbara Boxer saw it. Barack Obama saw it. Dick Durbin saw it. Russ Feingold saw it. Lincoln Chaffee saw it. A lot of us saw it.

No one could have foreseen (ht Dr. Condi "PDB" Rice) in 2003 that George Bush was a stupid, lying incompetent fuck up? that Saddam had noting to do with 9/11? That Afghanistan was not able to stand on its own.

Sorry. You might have had something here if you had stuck to your first point. You overreached. You fucked up. You're wrong.

And this diary is a big ol' bucket o'ludicrous.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:55:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Molly Ivins saw it (1.00 / 1)

Which Iraq did you see it in?

Iraq I that was a big success for Bush and Cheney?

Iraq II that was a big failure for Bush and Cheney?

Hindsight is 20/20 and people rarely gloat when they were wrong.

Obama was on the wrong side of Drilling and had to change his position.  Hillary  in 2000 and had to support the Iraq war because thats where the politics were and it was by no means clear how retarded bush is.

Obama in 2000 with nothing didn't have to be pragmatic like Obama in 2008 was with drilling.

Hillary didn't have nothing in 2000 and had to be pragmatic and pragmatic was supporting the war.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pragmatic in what sense? (2.00 / 3)

Starting a war for political purposes... that kind of pragmatism?

If you had any idea what you sound like, you'd quit now.

I don't forgive John McCain OR Hillary Clinton for voting for this war, even though they both thought it was pragmatic at the time.  They were wrong, Obama was right, and that's one important reason he should be president and they shouldn't.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:19:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatic in what sense? (none / 0)

Dumbo

All wars are a choice.  ALL WARS.

Fact is we were hit by Arab Sunni Terrorists and we struck a non Arab non Sunni Afghanistan.

There is a strong argument that we needed to hit a Arab Sunni Nation such as the Sunni controlled Iraq.

In addition its also likely that we have hit peak oil and the massive oil reserves in Iraq could be our Saudi Arabia of the 21 century.

Your living standard is largely because of the wars our leaders CHOSE to fight.  Independence, Civil, WWI, WWII etc, etc.  It has been our military might that insured the Saudi family and allowed oil prices to be so low so long.

You may honestly believe that the morality of the individual that you practice in your daily life scales to the morality of the nation but it doesn't.

Presidents who don't kill people like Nevil Chamberlin get people killed.   Presidents who don't lie, get people killed.  Presidents who don't cheat, get people killed.  National politics uses a whole different set of laws and trying to do it with the morality of the individual is wrong.  Even good presidents who honestly want good for all the planet, need to lie, cheat, steal, kill and blackmail.  Thats just how power works.

Presidents and other wielders of real power kill people every day either through action or inaction.

You as and individual cannot take your personal morality which works for people within a political structure where there are laws and police and expect it to work in an area with no police.  There are no police in the world its just nation vs nation with the UN being a politically unfair entity either favoring the powerful in the security council or favoring the numerous un-powerful and often totally corrupt in the general assembly.

If someone slaps you, you call the police and press a complaint without slapping them back.  If terrorists slap America it needs to slap back as there is no islamic terrorist police network that will arrest OBL for us.  Your morality doesn't scale.

Nevil Chamberlan tried turning the other cheek with Hitler it doesn't work.

Now a case can be made that hitting Pakistan would have been a good place to stop and I understand that.  But a equally strong case can be made that Sunni Arabs needed to feel pain which is the reason so many Democrats supported the war.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:47:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatic in what sense? (2.00 / 3)

There is a strong argument that we needed to hit a Arab Sunni Nation such as the Sunni controlled Iraq.

No, there isn't. There never was. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Stop digging. You really are in over your head.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:50:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatic in what sense? (none / 0)

In national politics when someone hits you you hit them back.

Not their distant cousin who they have never met.

We got hit by people from Saudi Arabia.

People form Saudi Arabia got killed in Iraq when they went to help Al Quida.  Their families felt the results of their believes and actions vis a vie attacking the USA.  People at their mosque felt loss.  Their mothers felt the loss of life from a defeat.  The 9-11 dead were successful in a sense but many of the volunteers in Iraq were failures and their country men know it.

Very very very few people from Saudi Arabia died in Afghanistan.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:04:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatic in what sense? (none / 0)

In national politics when someone hits you you hit them back.

Not their distant cousin who they have never met.

Um.... yeah... which makes what you said above and what you said below in this post even dumber.

Seriously, are you drunk?

You really have no idea what role Afghanistan played with Al Qaeda, do you? Do you know where Osama bin Laden has been for seven years? Are you possibly as stupid as your posts indicate? It strains credibility.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 11:10:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pragmatic in what sense? (none / 0)

You are projecting ignorance onto me so that you can continue to believe that you are right.

Al Quida is a mostly Saudi Arabian group, Saudi leader, Saudi money, Sunni, Arab.

Afghanistan is not Arab.

Afghanistan is not the source of the $$$

Afghanistan is not the source of the manpower

Afghanistan is not the source of the intel, even though in the 80s it was care of the CIA.

Why are there no Afghanistan suicide bombers attacking us?

Answer because its not Afghanistan citizens those camps train...

The arabs in those camps aren't worried about Afghanistan.

There wasn't a big Arab movement to defend Afghanistan that was a Pakistan movement.

The Arabs were all set on defending IRAQ...

Why is there more Al Quida troubles in Iraq than in Afghanistan?

Didn't Al Quida realize that Afghanistan is their home base and Iraq just a side battle???

Were they just confused?

Maybe you could project some ignorance on them too...


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 06:26:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And does the massive failure of this policy (2.00 / 3)

give you any pause in trying to offer such an amazing justification for it now?  Even if the war had succeeded, I would be horrified by what you said.  But the fact that it is what Ret. Gen. William Odom has called "The worst strategic disaster in U.S. History," that should at least make you go, oh, wait, maybe that wasn't such a well-thought out idea after all.  Doesn't it?


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:11:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And does the massive failure of this policy (none / 0)

We live in a democracy.  In a sense you and I run the country in to a very small degree.  As such its important than when a drunk drives a car into a tree on the way to do something perhaps worth doing we don't agree that cars always drive into trees or that the thing wasn't worth doing based on the car accident.

It is our obligation as voters to understand the issues as fully as possible.

When a political party wants to suicide bomb your nation you have a very limited ability to respond against those who have already suicide bombed you.  If they are willing to act in small groups you may rarely have a target that you can attack before it suicide bombs you.

As such you need either to not respond or to respond against people who have wronged you to lesser degrees and basically collectively punish those who attack you through suicide.  I see the Iraq war as both an attempt to grab the oil and as a attempt to hurt those who hurt us in 9-11.

As such it makes very good sense in two ways.  Iraq possibly was more beneficial to us than Afghanistan.  Of course a big part of that is do we actually end up controlling the oil?  Does Iraq end up being a non hostile nation?  Does Iraq remain a democracy?

I would argue that if we only lost 6,000 for every nation of 20,000,000 that we invaded and made a democracy that it was a worthwhile cost so long as the nation remained a democracy for all time.

So again there are 3 arguments why the Iraq war may have been a valuable thing, 1) Oil, 2) terrorism, 3) Democracy

So yes the drunk crashed the car but a serious argument can be made for the destination.  I respect that you may not agree with the argument, I am not sure the Iraq war had to happen.

But its a very different thing for you to deny that there could possibly be an argument for the war.

Based on the number of Democrats who voted for it I believe that the majority of our party leaders believed that the case for war against Iraq was very close to stronger than the case against.  Our leaders are mercenary but not so mercenary to vote for something they totally didn't believe in and that they knew would kill thousands of troops.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:35:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dick Cheney, is that you? (none / 0)

You are shockingly misinformed.  And guess what, personal morality does apply to nations.  That's why war crimes exist.  Why this country is partaking in war crimes and why we're not being called out on it is another debate.


by shalca on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 07:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dick Cheney, is that you? (none / 0)

War Crimes?

Where was war crimes when Saddam gassed civilians?

Where was war crimes in 1992?

War crimes only caught up to Saddam after Iraq II.

And then just to pacify the individuals within society who live according to their individual morals who want to believe that nations follow individual moral laws.

If we followed individual moral laws we would fight North Korea until they are free.  Burma until they are free.  etc etc etc.

We don't as a nation follow individual moral law and neither do any of the powerful nations.  And the non powerful nations who like to believe they do don't donate a sizable portion of their financial wealth to it.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dick Cheney, is that you? (none / 0)

You see, morality says that two wrongs don't make a right.  You point out that Saddam committed war crimes, and yes, he did, especially against Iran in the 80's when he used gas.  Guess what, he was supported by us.  So while the world may have been disgusted by his actions, once again, the U.S. (under a republican administration) involved itself in an immoral action.

Maybe you're fine with that, and you have a Machiavellan view of the world.  But it's precisely that view that gets us in trouble and causes people from half way around the world to hate us to the point of getting on planes and blowing themselves up.

Now I'm not saying that violent behavior is excused by our foreign policy.  I'm just saying that such a foreign policy does not make us safer, and unless you're in a position to make money from it, is not in our best interest.  I honestly feel that you would feel more comfortable on a neo-conservative site, because you won't find many educated people who agree with you here (or in the world for that matter).


by shalca on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 05:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dick Cheney, is that you? (none / 0)

I think we have common ground in that Reagan created Bin Laden and Saddam and their subsequent actions are blow back from CIA operations.

Republicans believe that foreign adventures have little consequences and as a result are constantly fighting the effects of their last wars etc.

But individual morality should not apply to nations for the very reason that they do not work.  Police and a justice system and democracy to change the laws if you don't like them make our individual lives pursuit of happiness possible.

At the national level there are no structures like that.  But at a more  concrete level NATURE is not like that.  The very nature of mankind is to seek advantage and that is what will happen whether you acknowledge it or not.

Terrorists will use suicide bombs.  Drug kingpins will set up their own countries.  The cost of dealing with these issues on a civilized bases is much much higher than sending in a seal team and killing Bin Laden or a drug lord.

Bush and Reagan overplayed the black ops hand and did silly things like sell weapons to Iran in order to get money to the contras and then let Iraq get chemical weapons so that they would use them on Iran and then torturing people.

Clinton with his attempt to kill Bin Laden on the other hand was more prudent but still tried to kill a human being without trial.

The effect of having that trial regarding Bin Laden by the way may have had terrible consequences.

Just think what would happen in the DNC convention if Hillary and Obama had a trial over who should win.  Thats an example of what happens if we had a process that we always followed such as voting on the delegate.  Obama doesn't want it because the very vote opens wounds and zaps his strength in a way that not having the vote doesn't.

Likewise a vote on Bin Laden in 2001 in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, parts of France, would have been very damaging to America's interests and to the interests of all who support our values.

That is  why at the national level individual morals will probably never be in effect.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 06:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Molly Ivins saw it (2.00 / 1)

You're not even coherent.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BlueIn, you're my new progressive hero. (none / 0)

Email me.


by Dumbo on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit is right (2.00 / 4)

Tens of thousands of people on the streets of the world knew Bush was lying and was determined to go to war. Germany, Canada, France, Mexico, and many other allies and powers knew. 23 Senators and a majority of House Democrats knew.  Gore and Obama knew. The UN inspectors knew. I knew.

To say that Hillary didn't know is "bullshit".  She wasn't deceived. She needed to look "strong on defense" in advance of her presidential campaign and made a political calculation. The failure of that campaign because of that vote is the sad irony of her candidacy.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit is right (none / 0)

There was and is a very strong argument for hitting a Sunni Arab nation after Sunni Arab terrorists hit us.

It wasn't stupidity that caused so many Dems to vote with that war...

If you miss the reasoning why people are acting its very easy to think they are clueless.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:51:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You win (2.00 / 4)

most ignorant post of the night.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit is right (none / 0)

Sure, she needed to look strong on defense in advance of her presidential campaign.  Guess what? Many other Senate Democrats were thinking the same thing--knowing that the party loses elections based on perceptions of weakness.

But that doesn't change the argument.  Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Dodd, etc. were entrusting the President with awesome responsibility:  and when they did so, all they could have reasonably anticipated was that the President would indeed follow the resolution, acting only when truly necessary--follow his own words, invading only as a last resort.  

Here's the honest, non-partisan truth that you ought to acknowledge:  1) The Iraq Resolution certainly allowed room for force, but it did not mandate war, order war, or even recommend war.   2) The Iraq vote had nothing to do with the fate of Iraq.

Think about #2.  Even if you suppose it were the wrong vote at the time, have you considered what would have happened if the Administration followed the Shinseki/Powell way and placed 200,000+ troops on the ground from the get-go?  Your blame is certainly misplaced.  Don't blame a good majority of the U.S. public and Senate who honestly trusted that the government would know what it is doing.


by MMR2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:44:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Unconscionable (2.00 / 2)

>Guess what? Many other Senate Democrats were thinking the same thing--knowing that the party loses elections based on perceptions of weakness.

This an excuse? Throwing away the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi citizens is OK because others thought it was OK too?  That's leadership?  Morality?

>But that doesn't change the argument.  Hillary , Joe Biden, Dodd, etc. were entrusting the President with awesome responsibility:  and when they did so, all they could have reasonably anticipated was that the President would indeed follow the resolution, acting only when truly necessary--follow his own words, invading only as a last resort.

EVERYONE knew exactly what Bush wanted at the time.  To say otherwise is revisionism.  I claim no psychic powers or supernatural insight and I knew damn well what Bush wanted. So did many many others (need I recount whom?). And, by the way, *every* bad outcome in Iraq was predicted.  All one had to do is pay attention.

>Here's the honest, non-partisan truth that you ought to acknowledge:  1) The Iraq Resolution certainly allowed room for force, but it did not mandate war, order war, or even recommend war.

Refresh my memory.  What was the bill entitled?

>2) The Iraq vote had nothing to do with the fate of Iraq.

You're kidding, right?

>Think about #2.  Even if you suppose it were the wrong vote at the time, have you considered what would have happened if the Administration followed the Shinseki/Powell way and placed 200,000+ troops on the ground from the get-go?  

I see.  You're saying that attacking a country that has not threatened you is OK... as long as it was carried out well. Look: I of course am appalled at the inept post-war planning, but my beef is with the decision in the first place.

>Your blame is certainly misplaced.  Don't blame a good majority of the U.S. public and Senate who honestly trusted that the government would know what it is doing.

Sorry, but I remain unconvinced. You portray all involved as hapless and gullible bystanders who just wanted to do the right thing. While ignorance isn't really excusable, I can *almost* let the public off the hook. Post 9-11 hysteria, a lying government, and a complacent media certainly made for a heady brew.

But I refuse to let off those within government, legislative or executive.  Hillary et al. are educated, worldly people who sit on committees that discuss these issues every day.  You might have been fooled.  They were not.  They were making political calculations based upon the prevailing political winds at the time.  The fact that other lemmings chose to makes it no better. People died and are dying, and we are paying and paying paying. The careers of a few millionaire politicians seem hardly the trade-off.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 05:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unconscionable (none / 0)

Time may have passed since this thread, but I can't let this one go.

No one who voted for the AUMF was voting to "[throw] away the lives of US citizens and Iraqi soldiers."  I don't care what you thought might happen at the time, but that was NOT automatically in the cards at the time of AUMF.  When I said "The Iraq vote had nothing to do with the fate of Iraq," I really wasn't kidding.

You say every bad outcome was predicted.  Here's the truth about these so-called 'predictions':  Few, if anyone, could have predicted that the Bush Administration would outright lie to the public, forge documents, and so forth, in making the case for war.  Few, if anyone, could have predicted that the Bush Administration--with overwhelming levels of trust endowed to it at the time--would have mangled the war in epic proportions.  The truth is that Iraq need not have become a quagmire from 2003-2007 had the Bush Administration conducted the war effectively.  

By the way, I will refresh your memory.  The bill was an Authorization for the use of military force.  Not a mandate for force.  Not a recommendation for force.  Instead, it was an authorization for force if and when it became absolutely necessary--a last resort.  The President subverted that Resolution.  Period.  


by MMR2 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

8/20/08 (none / 0)

Tell you what, I think you should post a nice diary going into why you think a bill entitled 'Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq' had nothing to do with Iraq.  

In this diary, please let everyone know that no one could have possibly seen what was around the corner at the time this bill was voted on.

I think you'll get a lot of healthy debate around here and perhaps DailyKos. I for one look forward to reengaging you on this subject within a new thread.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 03:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hindsight is 20/20. (1.75 / 4)

Some of us, including Obama, had 20/20 FORESIGHT on invading Iraq. When we have a president and VP who had the judgement to oppose the Bush/McSame Disaster, and our troops are finally out of that shithole, then and only then will I feel any possible disposition to forgive those who helped them, out of either stupidity or political calculation.


by Glaurung on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 10:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hindsight is 20/20. (2.00 / 2)

They didn't need any "help"...with or without the Resolution, odds are they were going in.  Obama certainly opposed the war, but far from the goings-on of the Senate, where political calculation might have affected even HIM (he certainly is politically calculating on the campaign trail), and where reasonably minded Democrats like Edwards, Kerry, Clinton, Dodd, and Biden did not vote out of stupidity, but perhaps out of genuine belief--given what the Administration told us all--that our national interests were at risk and Bush had the right to take action as he deemed "necessary and appropriate."  

The foresight isn't as black and white as you make it.  We all have 20/20 hindsight, but no one had 20/20 foresight that the Iraq War would unfold like it did.  No way you could have predicted that Bush would learn new information after the Resolution, only to withhold it from Congress & the public.  No way you could have predicted that his Admin would have bungled the war and fought it in such a cost-ineffective & haphazard way.


by MMR2 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 11:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

with or without the Resolution (1.83 / 6)

That's worst excuse of all. The second worst excuse is gullibity. Of course, political cowardice, corruption, or opportunism aren't excuses at all.

"no one had 20/20 foresight that the Iraq War would unfold like it did."

In fact, many did. A few even made onto the corporate media (only to be banished). Hell...even I predicted a quagmire that would cost thousands of lives and hundreds of billions. It was painfully obvious to anyone not intoxicated or corrupted by Bush's 9/11 koolaid.

"No way you could have predicted that Bush would learn new information after the Resolution, only to withhold it from Congress & the public."

AFTER the resolution??? You must be kidding. the WMD lies were transparent BEFORE it!

"No way you could have predicted that his Admin would have bungled the war and fought it in such a cost-ineffective & haphazard way."

No way any sensible pewrson could not have predicted incompetence from the Bush Regime which had already let 9/11 happen? You MUST be a fucking NeoCon.


by Glaurung on Tue Aug 05, 2008 at 11:58:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: with or without the Resolution (2.00 / 1)

I think it's fair to say that no one knows the future. Some didn't trust the president and made predictions that came true, others were focused on the fact that the sole branch responsible for intelligence urged them to grant authority to neutralize an "imminent threat."

As for the WMD lies being apparent from the start, it's just impossible to prove something like that. It's like saying "It's apparent from the Titanic's design that it would hit an iceberg and sink." It did hit an iceberg and sink, but just because it sank doesn't mean it was always apparent that the design made it prone to sinking.

This administration did something I don't think any administration has explicitly done in the past: it deliberately lied to the Congress for the purposes of an ideological war, not neutralizing a threat. As a result, a bad system has gotten far worse. Congress has oversight but doesn't collect intel. Congress has appropriations powers but no explicit constitutional power to stop a war from starting. What's more, supposing we needed to go to war in the future, we're even more screwed because of the lack of clear rules and the damage done to the office Bush's deceit and incompetence.

Sensible people can make sensible arguments. If you want to quote the opinions of people who voted against the war, that's fine. But that doesn't prove that it was inherently clear from the start what the future would be.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:42:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no one knows the future (1.80 / 5)

Sometimes the future can be predicted quite accurately, such as....

Driving a nail with your thumb on its head.
Stepping in front a train.
Telling your wife she's fat.
Invading a country that has had years to install an underground guerrilla warfare network and incurring as crusaders the wrath of millions of muslims.

I grow weary of people trying to justify their own stupidity in believeing one word of anything Bush or his boss Cheney or their minions ever/always lied. And I grow just as weary of those same people making excuses for politicians who were either too stupid, corrupt, or cowardly to do everything thing in their power to stop the most obvious blunder in American history.

But weary though I be, 'llI never stop calling them out for it until their mess has finally been cleaned up and they are relegated to the garbage bin of history.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no one knows the future (1.00 / 1)

Remember Iraq when Bush and Cheney were right?

If not maybe you should ask someone...

It was totally completely unclear how Iraq II would turn out.

Of course all the people who called it want you to believe they can predict the future but most of them are currently switching their drilling stance because if they don't they know they will get clobbered.

Why can't people realize that the war in 2000 is like offshore drilling in 2008.  Most of use don't like it but the politics opposing it are suicide TODAY.  

Eight years from now there will be no shortage of NOBODIES saying I told you so about offshore drilling.  That doesn't change what happens this cycle.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thus quoth the McTroll. (1.50 / 4)

You NeoDumbasses were full of shit then and you still are now. If you had any sense of decency you would dig a hole and hide in it.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:05:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thus quoth the McTroll. (1.00 / 1)

Insults are not powerful.

Insults are a sign of weakness.

I am right and you know it so you resort to insults.

But I like the if you were a moral person you would agree with me argument.

Google no true scotsman for a nice explanation why this is a commonly recognized fallacy.

when you are out of bullets stop shooting.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When you are out of lies stop talking. (1.66 / 3)

Since all you ever have are the discredited lies of Bush and your fellow minions to vomit up.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When you are out of lies stop talking. (1.00 / 1)

The fallacy of personal attack...

Here maybe you should go down the list in some form of order.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies /


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is it a personal attack... (1.50 / 2)

to call out a NeoCon shill?

It shows how far we've come in discrediting your ilk that you now consider it an insult.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is it a personal attack... (2.00 / 2)

It is a personal attack.  Rebutting arguments, not who (you think) a poster is, usually works better.  


by MMR2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It was rebutted. (1.50 / 2)

But, of course, the GOP teaches their mouthpieces to just keep regurgitating the same pack of lies.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:29:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is it a personal attack... (none / 0)

My bad your previous attack was poisoning the well

This attack is personal attack...

boy that list comes in handy talking to you.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:24:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sure you rely on lists of talking points.... (1.00 / 1)

which are formatted so you can cut and paste them into any conversation. It's because the prime directive of every McTroll is to avoid thinking independently.

BTW...whatever your list says is between you and it.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 03:33:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you rely on lists of talking points.. (none / 0)

The list of Fallacys are talking points?

If you don't learn to talk without making personal attacks you are unable to move any agenda forward.

As a Democrat its important that if not you at least those reading this learn how childish it is to be replying with bland insults because there is no logic that supports the position you cling to.

We all need to be able to make cogent arguments to support our views.

Failure to do that actually WEAKENS our case relative to silence.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 11:35:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Our case? (1.00 / 1)

Please don't degrade me by grouping me with you, McTroll, one of the most hide rated abusers of this website for Democrats.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 11:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our case? (none / 0)

I make logical arguments and support them with facts.

People often don't like what I say but more often they hate what I say because I say it effectively.

Occasionally to be effective I am rude but generally the goal is to be effective.  

Having someone who cannot communicate express that they think you are a bady bad with dirty dirt and ickky yuck doesn't make people angry.

What makes people angry is when someone effectively presents a alternate point of view and can defend it such that the first person cannot force the alternate view to go away.

Thats how you get hated.

If you want to be effective you need to raise the level of your communication.

Pointing out the hide rating is a very large step in the positive direction as you are taking something that has at least some basis in fact (I suspect I have more hide ratings than average but far less than 1 per 10 comments)  and using it to try and denigrate me as a person who shouldn't be trusted.

But you are still in the realm of personal smear.

you want to stay at the level of abstract where neither speaker really matters to the facts at hand.

Because this is your strongest comment yet I suggest we stop here .


by dtaylor2 on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I make logical arguments (1.00 / 1)

You regurgitate GOP lies, smears, and talking points. It makes no difference whether you do it because you're a bitter deadender McPuma, or a bitter deadender McBushevik.


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:35:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I make logical arguments (none / 0)

bady bad with dirty dirt and ickky yuck


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 06:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So says one of the most hide rated trolls (1.00 / 1)

on this site. You couldn't live for a day on a moderated blog.


by Glaurung on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 12:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So says one of the most hide rated trolls (none / 0)

Censorship is your passion.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 01:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So says one of the most hide rated trolls (1.00 / 1)

I've only HR'd 7 times, and never you, McTroll. But I do check up on the hidden comments and know that you're as ugly as trolls come. But then, you wouldn't know about it since you surely have no privileges on this site.


by Glaurung on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 02:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thus quoth the McTroll. (none / 0)

You are acting like an ignoranus.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 04:00:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thus quoth the McTroll. (1.00 / 1)

Ignorani are where you McTrolls come from.


by Glaurung on Thu Aug 07, 2008 at 12:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no one knows the future (2.00 / 2)

Driving a nail with your thumb on its head.
Stepping in front a train.
Telling your wife she's fat.

Okay, let's play this game then.

The Marshall Plan. It didn't sound like it was headed for disaster: we'd help to rebuild Europe and at the same time contain the influence of a clearly corrupt and maniacal dictator. But whoops, it eventually led to the Vietnam War. Clearly, it should have been apparent to Truman from the start that the Marshall Plan was doomed to failure. Anyone who wants to argue with this fact is stupid or ignoring the facts.

Mandated interest rates at S&Ls in the 70s and 80s. It didn't sound wrong at the time: if the American taxpayer had to guarantee these institutions then they should comply with Congress's goals. Whoops, the S&Ls had to invest in extremely risky instruments during the recession in the early 80s-- they whole thing went blooey in a matter of years. Clearly it was apparent from the start that mandating interest rates was like hammering a nail with your thumb on it. Anyone who argues that maybe Congress couldn't have known what was going to happen thereafter is clearly ignorant.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't even know the past. (2.00 / 1)


by Glaurung on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 02:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't even know the past. (none / 0)

I'd say the same for you, not even the recent past either.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 11:06:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hindsight is 20/20. (2.00 / 4)

Perhaps Hillary would have had more 20/20 foresight had she - and so many other U.S. Senators - bothered to read the 2002 NIE report before authorizing any kind of military force. But they didn't.

Yet many Americans knew as Barack Obama did that an invasion was a mistake, or have we already forgotten the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of citizens that poured out into the streets of Chicago, New York, LA, and elsewhere in protest?


McSame '08: Against All Hope - and Proud of It
by Its All So Goofy on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hindsight is 20/20. (none / 0)

Perhaps Hillary would have had more 20/20 foresight had she - and so many other U.S. Senators - bothered to read the 2002 NIE report before authorizing any kind of military force.

Doubt it would have changed a single thing. She talked to the principals. Even if the Republican Congress voted down the AUMF, do you believe it would have ended the matter?


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama
by bowiegeek on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hindsight is 20/20. (2.00 / 2)

No, I don't, but as a voter, I probably could have given her more of a pass on her vote had she at least done her own homework. And if she had, I like to think she would've voted another way, as some Senators actually did. But I'll never really know for sure now.


McSame '08: Against All Hope - and Proud of It
by Its All So Goofy on Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 01:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hindsight is 20/20. (none / 0)

I don't see that the majority of people have given her a pass even if she conducted the preliminary inspections with Hans Blix at her side.


While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work ~ Barack Obama