MyDD :: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"?

Is Joe Biden a "Racist"?

by Manic Lawyer, Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 11:43:03 PM EST

I heard someone say with respect to Senator Joe Biden,

The mere fact that people discuss "race" is not evidence that they are "racists".

This topic of "race" is very convoluted , since we all agree that, as a biological matter, "race" doesn't exist in the first place. It's very difficult to have a meaningful discussion about something that we all agree does not exist. It's like asking, "How abominable is the abominable snow man?" If the abominable snow man does not exist, will we ever be able to reach general agreement about whether he is abominable or not? Since "race" does not exist, how can we know if any given person is a "racist"?

I think anyone who uses the word "race", regardless of the skin color of the person who does so, is a proponent of or an enabler of the idea that humans can be divided neatly up into meaningful biological groups based on the color of our skin. Among the most "racist" people alive are those who keep "racism" alive by ostensibly fighting against "racism" while continuing to use linguistic terms that presume the disproved existence of "race" itself.

"Race" does not exist. It is the most debated biological concept that has no basis in biology. Why not divide us by height or eye color, hair color or distance between our eyes? Fact is, biological "race" is a fallacious and arbitrary concept that has no meaning except in the proponents' minds, and I call those proponents "racists", regardless of what their color is. In my opinion, if you believe in socialism you are a "socialist"; If you believe in "race", you are a "racist."

Now, some Black people and whites readily admit that "race" doesn't exist as a biological matter, but they nonetheless insist on using the word to refer to a political concept, insisting that Americans are intelligent enough to know the difference, and to make the distinction in the context of any given conversation. Since when have Americans been so intelligent?

This to me, is like insisting that I can call my wife "my bitch" in a positive way, and everyone will be intelligent enough to know that I am using the word in a loving rather than derogatory way. And therefore, because I use the phrase "my bitch" in a positive way, I can know with certainty that I will not give license, political and linguistic cover to those who regularly use the term in a negative way.

The truth is that if I called my wife "my bitch" for any reason, I would be giving cover to those who use the word in a derogatory fashion for the purposes of denigrating all women, particularly Black women. And so, like the word "race", I can't afford to use the term "my bitch" at all, for any reason. The social, political and linguistic costs are just too high.

Similarly, if I use the word "race" for ANY REASON, I give cover to those who use the word to propagate the belief that human beings can be divided into meaningful biological groups based on skin color. So, if you hate hearing the phrase "my bitch", then you should also consider abandoning the phrase "my race," regardless of what your own skin color is.

Now, when Biden makes statements that are clearly referencing people's skin color and/or ethnicity, there can be no doubt but that those statements are aroused by his perception of others skin color and /or ethnicity, as well as his learned ideation, emotion and behavior aroused by the perception of others' skin color or ethnicity. Therefore, Mr. Biden has demonstrated that he has ideation, emotion and verbal behavior that is aroused by skin color and ethnicity. He also has a nearly perfect voting record on civil rights issues.

We have a legitimate interest in what the Democratic vice presidential candidate's ideation, emotion and behavior are with respect to skin color and ethnicity. That's what I am interested in, and I'm not about to be side-tracked into the tangential and philosophical question of his beliefs about whether "race" exists or not. I just want to know what his ideation, emotion and behavior are with respect to Blacks (and Latinos), regardless of whether he believes in the existence of "races" or not.

It is possible to believe in the existence of "races" and to believe that all "races" are equal and should be treated alike. It is also possible to understand that "races" do not exist, but to still advocate for the denigration, subjugation exploitation and oppression of Black people simply because it gives white people a leg up.

So, let's stop discussing who is a "racist" and focus on each candidates' ideation, emotion and behavior with respect to their own skin color and the skin color and ethnicity of others, including but not at all limited to what they (and we) believe about "race." Everyone whose language presumes the existence of "race" is a "racist."

Poll

Votes: 11
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Tags: color arousal, race, racism, Biden (all tags)

Permalink :: 66 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (none / 0)

by libertyleft on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 11:45:41 PM EST

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (none / 0)

yes!

by gladiatorsback on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 11:48:12 PM EST

No (none / 0)

I hope that also the right answer to your tricky poll, you silly rabbit.

Well said. The entire "s/he is a <insert derogatory noun here>" meme is destructive simplistic BS at any rate. To imagine you can sum-up the complexities of an individual with one word like some hokey stick-on nametag is idiotic.

Biden is a human being with complex views, thankfully, and I find it extremely unlikely that these views contain any outrageous beliefs in the pros and cons of belonging to a given biological sub-group.

-chris

Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

by chrisblask on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 11:53:47 PM EST

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (2.00 / 1)

Aren't you discussing race? How are you not
"a proponent of or an enabler of the idea that humans can be divided neatly up into meaningful biological groups based on the color of our skin"? You used some form of it about 10 or more times throughout. Are you a racist?

by Scotch on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 11:55:32 PM EST

I discussed others' belief in "race". (none / 0)

Unfortunately, it is often necessary to discuss nonsense to debunk it, and that is what I've done above. In science, we often have to discuss theories (e.g. the "flat earth theory") in the process and for the purpose of proving and reminding people that they are not true.

It's not wrong to discuss skin color, ethnicity and human beings' ideation, emotion and behavior with respect to skin color and ethnicity. That's science, if it is done empirically and carefully.

What IS wrong is to confuse that empirical science with the fallacious and discredited pseudo-science of "race". As I said above, "race" is the most highly debated biological concept for which there is no basis in biology.

by Manic Lawyer on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Discussing race scientifically (2.00 / 1)

Sounds like an excuse to discuss race.

by Scotch on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:24:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let's get real. (none / 0)

Polls say that 15% of voters are telling pollsters that they would vote based on skin color. With a Black Democratic running against a white Republican for the presidency, this is as good a time as any to discuss American's color-aroused voting behavior.

But we are emphatically NOT discussing "race", which doesn't exist. We are discussing when, if and how the perception of our own color and that of another arouses in us and others ideation, emotion that may or may not influence our behavior. That has only as much to do with "race" as a discussion of phrenology has to do with a discussion of biology, or a discussion of the "flat earth" theory is related with the study of astronomy.

If you are frustrated with discussions of "race", maybe that's because "race" doesn't exist and discussions of "race" lead nowhere fast. But, skin color and ethnicity DO exist, and ideation, emotion and behavior that arise in response to the perception of skin color DO exist.

Biden's own statements show that he has ideation with respect to skin color. The question is whether that particular ideation would help or hurt him (and us) in the role to which Barack Obama has called him. I'm inclined to believe that Barack Obama has shown excellent instincts and political skills so far and should be given the benefit of any doubt with respect to Joe Biden.

I'm also inclined to believe that Obama's selection of Biden shows that Obama HAS accepted apologies Biden has made in the past, and shows a recognition that any color-aroused ideation Biden has is not substantially unlike that which many voters have whom Obama seeks to represent. If Obama work with Biden, he can represent voters like Biden.

by Manic Lawyer on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My bs meter lights up (none / 0)

when I hear people start on a controversial issue with theory, not with what happens to people in the streets and homes and jobsites every day. Especially when a lawyer (like me) uses it. then it becomes barristrial bullshit.

by Christy1947 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My bs meter lights up (none / 0)

Oops. I apologize for the bad word, the last one in the post. Very sorry.

by Christy1947 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (1.00 / 3)

Obama seemed to think so during the primary

by dtaylor2 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:00:24 AM EST

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (2.00 / 1)

No, he emphatically did not. Obama's first reaction to that boneheaded remark was akin to "Yeah, he said it, but it's Joe Biden. Come on!" He had to dial that back slightly as many in the African American community (and several former candidates in particular) didn't care for the remarks.

No, Barack Obama took it the way I thought he would. It was a dumbass remark coming from a good guy who occasionally speaks before he thinks.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:02:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You know that you are lying. (1.50 / 2)

by ttjackson1 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good grief, how hard is it (none / 0)

Racism is antipathy based on skin color. That's it.

I happen to think Asian women are beautiful and fascinating. That's not racist. If I dislike or mistrust someone solely because they are Asian, that is racist.

The amount of navel gazing over the issue is astounding, it is fairly straightforward.

and to answer your question, it would seem not.

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:09:12 AM EST

Your ideation and emotion are fascinating. (none / 0)

Color arousal is much more than antipathy based on skin color, although that is a good start. Color arousal is when you perceive the skin color and/or ethnicity of yourself and someone else and that perception arouses in you ideation, emotion and behavior that would not have been aroused but for your perception of that person's and your own skin color and/or ethnicity.

You personally acknowledge that your perception of what is "beautiful" and your arousal to finding someone "fascinating" result from your perception of an Asian woman's physical features and ethnic heritage. This learned response occurs automatically within you, you seem to be saying.

Some people automatically feel positively (or more positively) toward people whose skin is white (or Black). This is called color-aroused emotion. This is sometimes accompanied by color-aroused ideation and behavior, like seeking to speak with and engage with a person whose skin color and/or ethnicity arouses us.

I find this area fascinating, if only because it motivates so much human behavior. I also think it's very interesting to identify the ways in which we learn to internalize and exhibit color and ethnicity-aroused ideation, emotion and behavior. Attraction is potentially one of those emotions and engagement is potentially one of those behaviors.

by Manic Lawyer on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your ideation and emotion are fascinating. (none / 0)

I agree with your first and second paragraphs. I'm not sure about use of the term "automatically" in the third - I think race reaction, to a large degree, is learned.

I once worked in a rural area where I was the only Black person for literally miles. Some of the people I met had only seen blacks on TV. In general, I found them less racially hung up than their urban brethen, albeit more open about what feelings they did have.

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

IMHO you're confusing between racial prejudice (2.00 / 2)

and racism. Racism has an active discrimination based on race attached to it.

by louisprandtl on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I see the point (none / 0)

So if you're my boss and I dislike you, that's prejudice, but if I'm the boss and I fire you that's racism?

I could see that, but I think it's like the old saw of Eskimos having multiple words for "snow".

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:58:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I see the point (none / 0)

not quite right--see my definitions below. Action is discrimination.

by slynch on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:52:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Since "race" does not exist . . . (none / 0)

Since "race" does not exist, can "racial prejudice" exist. If I say, "You are discriminating against me because I am one of Santa's elves," which of us is delusional? You, because you believe in the existence of Santa's elves, or me because I believe that I am one of Santa's elves? In fact, both of us are delusional if we believe in the existence of Santa's elves.

The belief in "racial prejudice" is obvious predicated on a belief in "race." How can you be prejudiced against someone "because of their race" unless "race" itself exists?

The confusion arises from our learned belief that the existence of skin color means that "race" also exists. Somehow we are able to see various cats in the same litter without jumping to the obvious erroneous conclusion that each of these cats is from a different "race" or "breed". By definition, if they were all bred together, they are from the same breed, regardless of what their fur color is.

Likewise, white, brown and beige children who have the same mother and father are from the same species, regardless of their skin color. They are no more from different "races" than cats from the same litter are from different "races."

"Racism" is understood to be "discrimination against others based on their race." Since "race" has no basis is science, "racism" is a concept predicated upon a fallacy.

What DOES exist is ideation, emotion and behavior that are aroused by awareness of our own skin color and ethnicity and the skin color and ethnicity of others. Does Joe Biden exhibit some color aroused ideation, emotion and behavior? Some of his specific comments show that he does, because they explicitly referred to Obama's skin color and skin color group in the context of making an evaluation of his suitability for the presidency.

But, does the nature and severity of Biden's color-aroused ideation, emotion and behavior preclude him from being a suitable vice president, even though Biden's voting record on civil rights issues is perfect? Barack Obama says not, and I'm inclined to rely on the judgment and wisdom of Barack Obama, until and unless I see reason to do otherwise.

by Manic Lawyer on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:07:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok, I gotta say it man (none / 0)

I thought "ideation" was essentially a synonym for brainstorm, as in the generation of idea suites supporting a concept? is it appropriate in this context?

That aside, your second-to-last paragraph merely outlines that he was aware of Obama's race. I see no proof of an emotional component that was not specific to Obama himself.

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IMHO you're confusing between racial prejudice (none / 0)

fyi--here are classic sociological definitions:

stereotype: the belief that all (or most) members of particular groups of people behave in particular ways.

prejudice: the stereotyping of racial groups

racism: the belief in the superiority (or rankability) of one race over another

discrimination: taking action against a racial group based on prejudice and/or racism.

by slynch on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good grief, how hard is it (none / 0)

So you would agree that Obama has been a racist then?

You don't have to agree he is currently a racist but based on your definition and his book passages you would have to agree he has been a racist.

Or are you about to change your definition?

by dtaylor2 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've given you my definition (none / 0)

and (subject to modification by louisprandtl) I stand by it.

So, you tell me.

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:01:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (none / 0)

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:09:21 AM EST

Answer... (none / 0)

Does Barack or Michele Obama think Joe Biden is a racist?

I bet I know the answer!

Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 12:45:52 AM EST

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (none / 0)

would this be racist?

I think that the only reason Clarence Thomas is on the Court is because he is black. I don't believe he could have won had he been white.

by gladiatorsback on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:01:42 AM EST

In my opinion (none / 0)

that comment itself isn't racist. There are situations where it is simply a statement of bald fact. I've been the token black guy (in retrospect), so it does happen.

by Neef on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In my opinion (none / 0)

I am not a Clarence Thomas fan but Bush wanted to put his secretary on the Supreme Court. She wasn't black.

I think Clarence Thomas is an AA hire but he is as far as I knew basically qualified if slightly on the light side but then I didn't follow too close.

I think the best AA example is Colin Powell who is clearly an AA guy all throughout his career and is also one of the best Army guys and someone I would be totally happy with as President.

by dtaylor2 on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:34:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (none / 0)

Well, certainly Democrats rejected Bork, who had identical views to Thomas, and who didn't have a history of sexually harassing women.

Yeah, I'd say Thomas was on the court because he's black, because the only differences between him and Bork was the color of his skin and how the same Democratic senators reacted to that.

Sometimes things are true, even if they are based on delusion. My kids stayed up to look for Santa Claus on Christmas Eve. There is no Santa Claus, but my kids reacted as if he existed. It's a similar case.

"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout

by LIsoundview on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 03:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is Joe Biden a "Racist"? (none / 0)

I'm sorry, Manic Lawyer, but you are mistaken on several grounds. Race does exist. I'm an academic who studies racial differences in health and mortality, and I can tell you these differences are real. The argument that race doesn't exist simply because it isn't (fully) based in biology is a biological reductionist argument that, obviously, presumes some inherent 'ultimate' value in biology over all other sciences. As WI Thomas said more than a century ago, "if something is perceived as real, it is real in its consequences." People see skin color differences and act toward those differences. The consequences are real. You can't simply wave your hand and claim there's no biological basis for race and make race disappear.

Second, the analogy--one who believes in socialism is a socialist; therefore one who believes race exists is a racist--is a flawed one. It only works semantically/syntactically, but does not work conceptually. I believe socialism as a concept exists, but that does not make me a socialist. I believe race as a concept exists, but that does not make me a racist. Sorry, but this is a very poor analogy. At a minimum, you have ignored that racism has a very specific definition--it implies a belief in the superiority of one race over another (that is the classic sociological definition of it). Simply believing races exist does not make one believe in the superiority of one vs. another.

Third, you might want to get a little more up to date on your biology. In fact, DNA analysis can tell us what race an individual belongs to--as commonly defined categories--with better than 95% accuracy. There are also some well-known race-linked diseases (Tay Sachs, sickle cell anemia). These suggest that the simple "there is no biological basis for race" claim is not so clear-cut.

Finally, I appreciate the point you're trying to make. As a scientist, I just think that some of your claims about race are specious.

by slynch on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 01:46:24 AM EST

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